Cangel Best Lovers

Nostalgique ou passionné de la relation Cordy/Angel? Ou de la série qui l'a vu naître? Venez vite nous rejoindre, ce forum est fait pour vous.
 
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 Ce qu'en pensent les fans

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MessageSujet: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Lun 11 Mai 2009, 10:13

Personnellement, je trouve toujours intéressant de lire les avis d'autres personnes sur les persos que j'aime. Alors, inspirée de sujets sur SF, bah je crée un sujet spécial pour les rassembler ^^

Donc, bah vous pouvez poster ici tous les avis que vous trouvez sur le net, qu'ils soient positifs ou négatifs. L'attrait étant de pouvoir y réagir par après, même si la personne ne voit pas vos arguments.

Have fun ^^

_________________




Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel



Dernière édition par a.a.k le Mar 17 Nov 2009, 15:19, édité 1 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Jeu 01 Oct 2009, 13:16

Avis de Nina sur Buffyforums.net:

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Cordelia who is my third favourite is pure love. I can't say that her story really inspires me or that she is the most interesting character of the bunch. But she is the most lovable to me, maybe even the bravest as well. The girl doesn't need to be a superhero to be a hero and until this day it confuses me why people don't like calling her a champion just because she lacks the physical power to kick big monsters to the other side. Cordelia is perfect in a not Mary Sue-y way. (Well minus the trainwreck that was her storyline between het time in Mexico and her time in Heaven.)

_________________




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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Ven 15 Jan 2010, 19:16

le terme champion ne me plait pas non plus trop. c'est surtout à cause de tout ce truc de keiremption/moira (?), comme quoi angel et cordy sont forcés à être attirés l'un par l'autre parce que ce sont deux champions combattant le mal. Pour moi, c'est son côté humain qui attire angel, sa compassion, son courage, sa fidélité, non pas l'héroîne qui sait mettre une raclée aux démons.

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(Well minus the trainwreck that was her storyline between het time in Mexico and her time in Heaven.)

yep, tout à fait d'accord.
(et qu'est-ce que je déteste la façon dont elle "réalise" qu'elle est amoureuse de Angel, totalement ridicule!!)
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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 10 Fév 2010, 11:59

C'est aussi pour ça que, avec le recul, Kyeremption et Moira, j'adhère plus. Parce que ça élève Cangel vers un niveau Bangel et nan, j'aime pas! Et amen pour la façon dont elle "découvre" qu'elle est amoureuse. Enfin, pas le fait que Groo la confronte à ses sentiments, mais qu'elle ait besoin d'une vision pour confirmer le sentiment Rolling Eyes


Bref, des avis sur Cordy, tirés du forum d'Angel Hypnoweb (c'est posté par ordre chronologique):


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J'aime beaucoup Cordelia au début de la série, égale à elle-même, à la Cordelia qu'on a découvert dans "Buffy contre les Vampires" : superficielle, sarcastique, exaltée... Elle est un excellent personnage comique, seule ou en duo avec Doyle (puis avec Wesley). Je trouve que c'est le perso qui contribue le plus au côté humoristique de la série.

Par contre, je la trouve franchement insupportable quand elle revient de sa dimension supérieure, avec le cerveau lavé de tout souvenir... bon, OK, Cordy n'est plus vraiment elle-même puisque parasitée par l'essence de Jasmine, mais le perso n'est plus du tout drôle et n'a plus aucun intérêt (son histoire avec Connor/Angel, encore un triangle amoureux... merci du cadeau, on avait deja de quoi faire avec Wes/Fred/Gunn ^^)

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Pour commencer, je trouve que Cordélia était l'un des rares personnages de Buffy contre les vampires à avoir un quelconque intérêt du fait de ses super répliques sarcastiques bien envoyées ! Bref, je suis en plein revisionnage de l'intégrale Buffy, plus précisément à la saison 4, et c'est justement ce qu'on disait avec ma soeur : le personnage de Cordélia manque vraiment à la série Buffy après son départ (du moins jusqu'à ce qu'Anya arrive pour prendre la relève, niveau comédie).

Bref, c'était donc un réel plaisir que de retrouver Cordy dans Angel ! Mais bizarrement, ça n'est pas la "Cordélia-De-Sunnydale" que j'ai préféré ! A vrai dire, j'ai beaucoup aimé toute l'intrigue autour des visions... C'est d'abord très drôle de la voir découvrir ça...et puis on la plaint rapidement du fait des migraines... et surtout, on sent vraiment que les visions lui ont permis de grandir !

...et c'est cette Cordélia que j'aime ! La GRANDE Cordélia... Celle qui est douce et qui trouve toujours les bons mots pour réconforter les gens... La Cordélia maternelle un peu... Et je trouve que ceci transparait carrément dans la 3ème saison lorsque Cordélia s'illumine pour faire disparaitre les limaces transparantes ou lorsqu'elle raisonne ainsi Connor... Non seulement Cordélia a un grand coeur (comme le dit Fred en début de saison "Cordy est le coeur") mais on se rend compte de sa puissance durant ces moments là... Et ce sont vraiment les meilleures scènes de Cordélia pour moi (celles où elle s'illumine).

Sinon, dans la saison 4, c'est sûr que Cordélia nous manque beaucoup, car que l'on aime la Cordy drôle, ou la GRANDE Cordy (comme moi) c'est une dark cordy qui nous revient ! Mais je ne cracherai pas dans la soupe pour autant car je trouve que le personnage nous a donné de belles scènes, notamment avec Willow (et le couteau sous les draps) et surtout : l'épisode où elle descend lentement les escaliers avec ses hauts talons noirs, ça robe un brin gothique dans le but de tuer Lorne ! Bref, j'adoooore ce passage.
En fait, ce qui me gène dans la saison 3, c'est qu'au final Charisma Carpenter est peu présente (30sec dans les premiers, lorsqu'elle est dans l'au-delà) et dans les derniers, elle n'est plus qu'un corps (après avoir donné naissance à Jasmine)... Bref, c'est bien dommage mais bon...
Quant-au triangle Connor-Cordy-Angel, personnellement j'ai bien aimé ! Je trouve que Cordélia et Connor ne sont pas du tout assortis et que leur relation est quasi-malsaine...mais c'est justement ça que j'ai aimé ! J'ai aimé le fait que la série ai agité quelque chose en moi... Que l'on aime ou que l'on aime pas, c'est sur que ce triangle Connor-Cordélia-Angel ne laisse pas indifférent !

En tout cas, ça reste vraiment un super personnage, quoi-qu'on-dit !

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Bon je vais répéter un peu ce que vous avez dit, mais bon, je vais souligner certains points :

Comme toi Wini, j'adorait le côté sarcastique de Cordy, surtout quand la saison 1 ça a permis de décoincer un peu notre vampire qui était déprimant. En plus, elle et Doyle formait un beau duo à ce niveau-là, c'était à celui qui allait mieux bacher l'autre.

Quand elle a eu les visions, j'ai trouvé ça génial car on a commencé à voir Cordélia d'une autre façon : moins égocentrique, plus héroïque, plus sage,...En plus, on voyait bien qu'elle cachait la torture que ça entrainait peu à peu, pour ne pas inquiéter ces amis ce qui la rendait plus humble, plus mature.

Mais là où je rejoins Arvak, ce qu'après être redescendu de je ne sais quel monde, elle me tapait sur les nerfs. Tout simplement, parce qu'on aurait dit la sainte personnifiée, la sagesse incarnée. On avait perdu tout le côté diablesse sarcastique,...J'ai trouvé sa pathétique et on se demandait si les scénaristes savaient quoi faire du personnage, comment la faire mourir en héroïne. Je pense qu'il aurait pu faire mieux. Et je n'ai pas vu l'interet du couple Connor/Cordy.

Pour sa dernière apparition, j'ai adoré! On retrouve la Cordy délurée avec un côté mature. Tout en gardant son côté héroïne protégeant ces amis et son amour pour qu'ils souffrent le moins possible de sa disparition. La Cordy qui pense avant tout aux autres, avant elle. C'est ce que j'aimais dans le personnage : c'est qu'elle avait le don de nous montrer toute la beauté du sacrifice aussi déchirant soit il.

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Je préfère Cordélia dans la série Angel que dans Buffy, parce qu'elle évolue et que je trouve que cela lui fait du bien. Elle apprend, elle devient généreuse, présente pour les autres...

J'aime son évolution dans Angel. Dans Buffy, je trouvais qu'elle restait trop "collé" au système du lycée, de la superficialité, mais dans Angel, elle a vraiment pris son envol et j'ai découvert une autre Cordélia... Toujours amusante, mais surtout agréable.

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J'aimais beaucoup Cordélia et j'ai été très déçu par l'évolution de son personnage dans la saison 4 la faire avoir des relations avec Connor je trouve ça tordu!!! J'aurai préféré une belle histoire avec Angel.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 17 Fév 2010, 19:09

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Par contre, je la trouve franchement insupportable quand elle revient de sa dimension supérieure, avec le cerveau lavé de tout souvenir... bon, OK, Cordy n'est plus vraiment elle-même puisque parasitée par l'essence de Jasmine, mais le perso n'est plus du tout drôle et n'a plus aucun intérêt (son histoire avec Connor/Angel, encore un triangle amoureux... merci du cadeau, on avait deja de quoi faire avec Wes/Fred/Gunn ^^)

hum, elle ne semble pas vraiment avoir capté l'essence du retour de cordy et son évolution. rien qu'en rendant responsable cordy de ne plus être drôle,lol!!! et où est le rapport entre cordy/connor/angel est wes/fred/gunn??

Merci pour tout ça, ça fait toujours plaisir de bons avis.
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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 11 Aoû 2010, 18:50

Une fan n'a pas aimé la saison 3, et se défoule un peu sur Cordy (la partie sur Cangel et un peu plus générale est dans le sujet de Cangel ), d'autres viennent à la défense ^^

jsbiff
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That's another thing which sort of bugs me, from a writing standpoint - Cordelia's character development actually seems to go too fast. I mean, S2, she's dieing from the visions, but it's so important for her to be part of "The Mission" that Angel is undertaking, that she gives up a fabulous life of wealth and fame so that she can stay around to be part of that mission.

But then, in S3, after she becomes part-demon-vision-girl, she only has like 3 visions the whole season after that, and really plays a somewhat minimal role throughout S3, then at the end of S3, she gets taken out of the world (which, I guess I'll see in S4, but that kind of seems like it would be a bit of an end to her role on the show, except maybe having an occasional guest star appearance).

The way the characters have developed just is not convincing or engaging to me. I've come this far, I'll give Season 4 a chance, because they could do things which might get me back, but it really feels, to me personally, like the show kind of "jumped the shark" in S3.

sherrilina
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A) I think you are mixing up 2 and 3, that first part you mention is also in season 3 (3.01 through 3.12 in fact)—in which she does not play a minimal role by any means. B) What does her being taken out of the world have to do with her sacrificing her humanity for Angel and the mission? She thought she was continuing the mission by agreeing to ascend, and was fooled too by the powers.

And I don’t really see how it was rushed, it has been going on since season ONE, about two years or more, it’s hardly strange that she would finally be wearing down by mid-season 3 and near death from them, until she is dosed by Skip so she can keep going. And she certainly had more than 3 visions after that—though admittedly them taking her out of the show for a few epps for story reasons hampered the time she could vision away on screen… So I’m not sure what your talking about really, except if you are confusing the second half of season 3 as all of season 3…


Nina
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Until this day I think it's a pity how badly they treated Angel/Cordelia, since it had such a great build up. Finally they had a couple that managed to slowly fall in love with eachother (although there was always something.) and You're Welcome shows how well the two characters fit together. But I have the feeling that their relation in season 3 was forced even with the natural build up. They simply had to stay away from the destiny crap and the meant to be stuff. It doesn't fit Cordelia, who is a wonderful character without fitting her into the Buffy persona. Not for one second I felt that it was impossible to fall in love with the Cordelia we saw in season 1 and 2, I know I would.

sherrilina
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Yeah, it would have been better if they hadn't been talking about kairumpsha or whatever, but there was still a base that they were building off of, as you say, and I think it was a situation in which the two people in love did need a little nudge perhaps to admit what's already there...(kind of like the Booth/Brennan situation on Bones, but thankfully less dragged out within an inch of its life).

I wouldn't say that they really fit her into the Buffy persona all that much though. It was clear from the end of season 1 that she really valued helping people, and that only grew with time, as one would expect, especially the more time she spent experiencing others' pain and fear. So she would become more selfless and self-sacrificing and heroic naturally, I would say, and a little less self-centered. I also think it's logical she would have wanted to train, she and Wes and Gunn had to run AI by themselves for a time, and have to fight demons all the time, she should want to be as trained as possible.

I know a lot of people say she acted OOC in season 3, but honestly, her humor and snark was still there, like, "Yeah, if you're Tom Sawyer and building a white picket fence!" line, etc. Given what had just happened with Connor, I don't think it's unreasonable for her to have been a little less snarky perhaps, and again, her acting a little less self-centered is a natural outgrowth of the visions. The only time she really acts OOC is season 4, and it's not OOC because she a) has amnesia, and then b) it isn't her.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 11 Aoû 2010, 18:52

Ehlwyen
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Cordelia's character was created on BTVS to be the character of what Buffy would have been if Buffy had never became a slayer and had remained a normal teenage girl with no adult responsibilities and only concern for fashion and other vacuous things. So often, people speed through S1 & S2 and only see Cordelia as comedy relief rather than her true purpose of reflecting how much being a slayer has made Buffy differ from who she would have been.

Cordelia's story on Angel is how she cannot have the life of wealth she once had and how she learns she does not want it and is more fulfilled by helping Angel.

On BTVS, Cordelia is shown to be attracted to Angel. Though after finding out he is a vampire she is not interested in him because he doesn't represent her world's view of life. Angel is always mildly amused or scared of Cordelia and her embracing of all things unimportant like fashion and wealth.

This opinion of each other continues into Angel. In S2 after Angel gets his soul back, we can see the dynamic begin to change on Angel's part. He is astonished he didn't recognize how strong and self sacrificing Cordy became when he is part of the rescue in Epiphany. In Disharmony, he is ashamed to admit to her he slept with Darla. He also embraces her idea of life by buying her clothes. Something he always looked down on, he finally realizes is something that is a part of her but not all of her.

In the Pylean arc, we see Angel falling over himself to help rescue Cordy and his jealousy that she is not interested him as her knight but instead Groo.

It's definitely a planned and natural evolution of their characters to have them gain some type of romantic interest by Season 3.

While I am diehard Buffy/Angel, I don't feel the Angel/Cordelia relationship to be forced or a fault of the characters. The true reason Angel's curse was broken was ambiguous. It wasn't just sex, because Angel slept with Darla. Was it just because it was sex with Buffy? Or, perhaps it was because it was their first time together and it had been so long since he had let go of his anguish of past misdeeds. It's entirely possible that Angel knowing that he could break the curse and become Angelus again may never be able to have a moment of true unhindered happiness again. Regardless of the true mechanism, neither Buffy or Angel wanted to risk it again, that's why they broke up. And that's why ultimately Angel sends Cordelia off with Groo. He doesn't know if it could happen again. Nor does he want to risk screwing with Cordelia's emotions when she had a perfectly good shot at a good relationship with Groo. While not as important as becoming Angelus, I think it is important to Angel considering how he realizes Buffy struggles in finding her self confidence in relationships following theirs.

Buffy and Cordelia were created as two sides of the same coin separated by responsibility. It's not surprising that Cordy with responsibility and a need to help others is very much like Buffy. I don't feel at all that the show tried to say that Angel can only love Cordy if she is like Buffy.

Nina
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I can't really explain what felt off in season 3 in relation to Cordelia's character. The early episodes are good old Cordelia, but after a while something changes (after Mexico it was really clear). Her new shiny powers didn't help, I loved her sacrifice in 'Birthday' but the glow and the healing powers didn't feel right. What I meant with pushing her into the Buffy persona is to make Cordelia a champion. In a way she was always a champion, she fought evil out of free will and she learned to like that. In season 2 there was a scene where she told Harmony how much she loves to help people. But season 3 gave me the feeling that this was not enough, there had to be extra powers, importance and twu wuv, like Buffy.

Cordy was one of my favorite characters, and I'm sad how little honor there is for the character or the Angel/Cordelia relation (friendship or romance). David Greenwalt created this beautiful duo and Joss Whedon did throw them in the bin. Only the idea that it was supposed to be Buffy in You're Welcome is something that makes me pissed. What if they replaced the Scooby scenes in BtVS's 100th episode with Bangel scenes? Cordelia went out as one of the most mature characters on either show, a character who made huge sacrifices and who never crossed the ethical lines like the other characters did and there is no honor for the girl. She was forgotten by the characters the episode after her death, Buffy made a rude comment about her death in season 8, Angel does only love Buffy in season 8 and a big group of fans think she was unworthy of dating an undead massmurderer.

_________________




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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 11 Aoû 2010, 18:54

sherrilina
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She was forgotten by the characters the episode after her death, Buffy made a rude comment about her death in season 8, Angel does only love Buffy in season 8 and a big group of fans think she was unworthy of dating an undead massmurderer.

Wait, WHAT?! Seriously?! Ugh, what was it? And what a bitca move, Buffy!

And seriously, I hate Joss's treatment of her, I feel he ruined things when he took more control in season 5...

Ehlwyen
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I can't really explain what felt off in season 3 in relation to Cordelia's character. The early episodes are good old Cordelia, but after a while something changes (after Mexico it was really clear). Her new shiny powers didn't help, I loved her sacrifice in 'Birthday' but the glow and the healing powers didn't feel right. What I meant with pushing her into the Buffy persona is to make Cordelia a champion. In a way she was always a champion, she fought evil out of free will and she learned to like that. In season 2 there was a scene where she told Harmony how much she loves to help people. But season 3 gave me the feeling that this was not enough, there had to be extra powers, importance and twu wuv, like Buffy.

Oh, I agree, something is clearly off with Cordy after Mexico. I think a lot of it is due to realizing that Groo is no longer the type of guy she wants -- one that sees her as perfect. I think her dealing with the realization that she isn't happy, feeling guilty for it, and being confused about her feelings for Angel are a large portion of why she feels off.

I never loved AtS more than after Sleep Tight. But when the show returned after the 6 week hiatus, a lot of the show felt changed. Not just Cordelia when she returned a few episodes later.

I really despised how the show overused the word champion. It was great to use it once or twice but it got to where I would cringe.

I think the show liked Cordelia as the damsel in distress and once they played out the "visions killing her" storyline, they felt they needed to start a new one. I don't think the show ever intended for Cordelia to have super powers.

As far as the "true love" aspect, I might have felt some agitation as S3 first aired. But I do believe upon examination, the show tried to make the love between Angel and Cordelia something different than epic love like with Buffy.

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Cordy was one of my favorite characters, and I'm sad how little honor there is for the character or the Angel/Cordelia relation (friendship or romance). David Greenwalt created this beautiful duo and Joss Whedon did throw them in the bin. Only the idea that it was supposed to be Buffy in You're Welcome is something that makes me pissed. What if they replaced the Scooby scenes in BtVS's 100th episode with Bangel scenes? Cordelia went out as one of the most mature characters on either show, a character who made huge sacrifices and who never crossed the ethical lines like the other characters did and there is no honor for the girl. She was forgotten by the characters the episode after her death, Buffy made a rude comment about her death in season 8, Angel does only love Buffy in season 8 and a big group of fans think she was unworthy of dating an undead massmurderer
.

Well I have to agree with you exactly on all those points. It's the maltreatment of Cordelia's character that I will always hold against Joss Whedon.

I remember being so elated when they announced AtS would have Cordelia as the other character from BtVS joining it. She was underused in S3 and I knew that David Greenwalt saw her potential for growth. I was so sad when he left AtS and Whedon took over. Twice Whedon thought he could replace Cordelia with a comedic Spike and twice he was wrong. Cordelia was more than just the comedy of the show.

I'd say more about S5 and Cordelia but this thread is about S3.

_________________




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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 11 Aoû 2010, 18:57

Nina
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Wait, WHAT?! Seriously?! Ugh, what was it? And what a bitca move, Buffy!

And seriously, I hate Joss's treatment of her, I feel he ruined things when he took more control in season 5...

Once more the risk of talking about another season than Ats season 3;
Buffy went back into her past. And in highschool the 16 years old Cordelia was once more cruel to the 16 years old Willow and the 24 years old Buffy tries to cheer her up with; Maybe one day you'll be a great witch and she'll be dead. Many fans don't think it's a terrible line and I'm sure the writers didn't intent it to be that bad...but to me it was really respectless towards Cordelia. Like her or not, she was heroic and she died an awful death at a young age... don't talk about her like it's a positive thing she died. Buffy could have said a billion other things to cheer Willow up.

vampmogs
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I didn't really think Buffy meant anything by that line. Moments later she tries to cheer up Xander by saying how Snyder will be eaten by a giant snake so it wasn’t just Cordy she spoke about. Buffy hasn’t seen Cordelia since IWRY so I can imagine her being a bit desensitised to it, at least enough to be able to make a comment like that without meaning anything bad or feeling it was inappropriate. You gotta remember she was also hyped because she had escaped her life and was back in simpler times so she was kind of being silly and immature in those scenes. Just like how in Dopplegangland Cordy supposedly got over Willow's death in about 5 seconds but truthfully she would have probably been a lot sadder about it (had it been real) later on.

At the end of the issue when Buffy thinks back to those times and says "it was great to go home again" Cordelia's included in the image of her memory, so I do think she was honoured like the rest of the gang. That final page kinda proves Buffy thinks back on her fondly.

Nina
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Maybe I'm more sensitive about it. But if one of the people I went to school with died, I wouldn't talk about her like Buffy did. No matter how long I didn't see her, how bad my relation was with her or how little I knew about her last days... you don't say stuff like that. And while the Sneyder comment was wrong as well, at least Sneyder was a terrible man. Cordelia fought evil fulltime and her life ended with being raped and left for dead. The least you can do is not talk about her like it's great that she died. It's not like I blame her for not crying her eyes out above Cordy's grave, but a bit of respect wouldn't hurt. Cordelia did the same for her in the beginning of season 3.

vampmogs
Citation :
I just don't think Buffy meant it with any malice or that she was happy Cordelia was dead. I think you're probably thinking about it a lot more than even Buffy did when she said it. I think it was just a throwaway comment she said to try and cheer Willow up and she probably didn’t give it a lot of thought. The final page of that issue really doesn't make sense if Buffy hates Cordelia because she thinks back tearfully to that era and Cordy is there in her mind. If Buffy disliked Cordelia so much that she was glad she was dead I really doubt she'd think back to her with such warmth like that.

I can sympathise with why it'd hit a nerve for some people but I really just don't think that comment was ever intended to be representative of how Buffy truly feels. Which is why I brought up Dopplegangland because if you took Cordy’s scene with Wesley at face value you’d be under the impression that she doesn’t give a damn that Willow was dead. However, we know that Cordy really would care because she’s not that heartless and that of course she’d really be upset. We don't get any of that from the actual episode but we know Cordy well enough to know she's not made of stone. I think this is true of Buffy as well and her characterisation trumps one throwaway comment she made in the heat of the moment when consoling her friend.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 11 Aoû 2010, 19:00

sherrilina
Citation :

Citation :
*Cordy had a major personality transplant after Mexico. Neither development felt right to me and it all just felt very awkward and contrived.

Okay you keep throwing that phrase "personality transplant" out there, but could you actually explain what you mean by that? I mean, is acting sympathetic and kind and concerned towards a man she deeply cares about when he's just suffered a monumental loss the "unnatural" Cordy you refer to? Or wanting to help people as she has since season 1? I don't see what you mean, what is SO off that it's a "personality transplant"....

Citation :
Buffy went back into her past. And in highschool the 16 years old Cordelia was once more cruel to the 16 years old Willow and the 24 years old Buffy tries to cheer her up with; Maybe one day you'll be a great witch and she'll be dead. Many fans don't think it's a terrible line and I'm sure the writers didn't attend it to be that bad...but to me it was really respectless towards Cordelia. Like her or not, she was heroic and she died an awful death at a young age... don't talk about her like it's a positive thing she died. Buffy could have said a billion other things to cheer Willow up.

Wow, that is pretty harsh and rude, I agree. I mean, "she'll be dead"? REALLY?! How is that in any way an innocent statement? That's like saying, "maybe one day you'll be a great witch and she'll be raped by the boy she considered a son! Don't you feel better now?!"...

Nina
Citation :
Citation :
I just don't think Buffy meant it with any malice or that she was happy Cordelia was dead. I think you're probably thinking about it a lot more than even Buffy did when she said it. I think it was just a throwaway comment she said to try and cheer Willow up and she probably didn’t give it a lot of thought. The final page of that issue really doesn't make sense if Buffy hates Cordelia because she thinks back tearfully to that era and Cordy is there in her mind. If Buffy disliked Cordelia so much that she was glad she was dead I really doubt she'd think back to her with such warmth like that.

I can sympathise with why it'd hit a nerve for some people but I really just don't think that comment was ever intended to be representative of how Buffy truly feels. Which is why I brought up Dopplegangland because if you took Cordy’s scene with Wesley at face value you’d be under the impression that she doesn’t give a damn that Willow was dead. However, we know that Cordy really would care because she’s not that heartless and that of course she’d really be upset. We don't get any of that from the actual episode but we know Cordy well enough to know she's not made of stone. I think this is true of Buffy as well and her characterisation trumps one throwaway comment she made in the heat of the moment when consoling her friend.

My main problem is that it's such a weird 'throwaway comment', who makes those kind of comments? Would you talk like that about a young woman who is murdered even if you're not 100% serious? I get that Buffy is not dancing the dance of joy on Cordelia's grave, but the zero amount of respect is jarring. It wouldn't even come up in me to make such a comment, no matter in which context and no matter who the person in question is. While it 's hard to figure out how much Buffy does know, she clearly knows that Cordy is dead, that she died on a young age and murder is likely when a warrior dies at a young age. And in those cases there is only thing you can do, and that is to respect the person who is killed. Cordy's death doesn't belong in a throwaway comment.


Cordelia in 'Döppelgangland' has several big differences. The first was that Cordy was misused as comicrelief, she was clearly OOC just to make the audience laugh. (like by example Angel & Spike in TGIQ or Xander in 'Earshot" when he wants the jelly.) Buffy wasn't clearly OOC and misused as comicrelief when she said her line, she was meant to be taken 'seriously'.

Cordelia was at the time a spoiled girl at highschool who saw vampire Willow and maybe didn't even had the sense to understand (because OOC!Cordy is always selfish and 10 times more stupid as IC!Cordy) what a terrible thing must have happened to Willow. Which doesn't make her behavior okay, but season 8!Buffy is the leader of an army, an adult who is supposed to have seen everything already... you would expect some maturity right there. Buffy lost people around her, she died twice... she must understand the power of death a bit more than shallow highschool!Cordelia.

And the main problem, which is maybe a storytelling thing but still the biggest difference, Willow wasn't dead. For the characters that shouldn't make a difference of course but for the story it does. Would MN wrote the same lines for Cordelia if Willow was really dead? I don't think so, she wouldn't use OOC!Cordy for comedy in such an episode.
Cordelia is really dead, we will not see her back and it wasn't funny at all (Vampire!Willow and Willow were funny, Cordy had a terrible ending). And this is the first reaction to her death we see in BtVS, a throwaway line by a Buffy who shows no respect.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Mer 11 Aoû 2010, 19:01

vampmogs
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Citation :
Okay you keep throwing that phrase "personality transplant" out there, but could you actually explain what you mean by that? I mean, is acting sympathetic and kind and concerned towards a man she deeply cares about when he's just suffered a monumental loss the "unnatural" Cordy you refer to? Or wanting to help people as she has since season 1? I don't see what you mean, what is SO off that it's a "personality transplant"....

I call it a personality transplant because she acts like a totally different person from before she went on vacation. People refer to it as her "Saint!Cordy" phase because the character looses all of her snark and imperfections which made her so fun in the first place. I mean she even talks totally different like in this horrible scene;

"Let it go, honey. - Just let it go. You don't need that. You don't need any of that. That's right. Just let it go, baby. It's okay, sweetie. That's right. It's okay."

Ugh. What's with the horrible "babies" and "honeys" and "sweeties?" When did Cordy ever talk like that? It's like she's a totally different person from before she left. I could have never imagined Cordy talking like that even when she was being perfectly pleasant and caring. So it has nothing to do with her being kind or sympathetic it's how they completely altered her personality. YW strikes the right balance with making Cordy wise and loving but still with snark and all her loveable imperfections, like her short temperament with Angel etc. The way Cordy was in the last part of S3 was not the same Cordy from the start of the season who'd say something like "I'm Cordelia, I know, okay!?"

Not to mention that I found it totally unbelievable that she wouldn't want to confront Wesley over what happened. She had a very positive and close relationship with Wesley and there's no way *Cordelia* wouldn't want to speak her mind over what happened. They completely neglected her relationship with others and I don't find it genuine whatsoever.

She even dressed differently with that ridiculous white robe she was wearing in Tomorrow or the hippie outfit she wears in Double or Nothing. She just felt like a totally different character both inside and out *shrugs*

Nina
Citation :
Oh yes, I was almost forgotten how bad post-Mexico Cordelia was. It was like some new writers came in who didn't understood her character at all, shocking to see it were Minear and Greenwalt who came up with this not!Cordelia. I guess the writers were really desperately wanting to make the epic Angel vs Cordelia thing happen. And since the ME writers have a hard time believing that friendship is not less than a romance, it had to happen this way. Combine that with making characters saints right before their death (Tara and Fred got the same treatment).... ugh. I want the real Cordy.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Jeu 02 Juin 2011, 10:20

you-speak-lies:

Citation :
30 Days of Angel

Day One: Favorite Female Character

Cordy, you reign! There’s so much about Cordelia Chase to love that it’s hard to know where to begin. I love Queen C and I love that her friends were called the Cordettes. I love, “Tact is just not saying true stuff. I’ll pass,” and “I think it, I say it. That’s my way.” I love that, even back before the visions, even back before she was anything more than the stereotypical rich, mean, popular girl, she still wanted to do what she could to help fight evil. I love that she can exorcise ghosts through sheer force of bitchiness. I love that she embraced the “helping the helpless” mission as her own. I love that she wanted to keep the visions even though they were killing her. I love that she could go from the outsider comic relief of one show to the beloved heart of another. I love Cordy.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Ven 16 Déc 2011, 18:26

trackgirl22:

Citation :
Favorite Female Characters

#2 Cordelia Chase (Angel/BTVS)

I was fairly young when BTVS first aired so my perception of certain things is a bit different than it is now that I’m an adult, but the one thing that isn’t different is my love for Cordelia. I know on BTVS Cordelia was mostly written to serve as foil for Buffy, I still really liked her character. I think most of the credit for that has to go to Charisma Carpenter because I don’t think I would have felt that way had another actress gotten the role. I also like that even back then we got to see that there was more to Cordelia than met the eye. It wasn’t there all the time, but there were a lot of glimpses.

Once she was on Angel I loved seeing her evolve from someone that could be somewhat self-absorbed and even mean at times to a hero and the heart of the show. She was the one that usually gave Angel the heartfelt speeches and I think a big part of my love for Angel was partially because of her belief in him. I also loved that she could be funny because I think it’s necessary when you have a guy like Angel that had tendency to brood.

I’ll be honest and admit that I was always a bigger fan of Cordelia than Angel (though I did love Angel), so once that Evil/Possessed Cordelia storyline happened in Season 4, I lost a lot interest in the show. I continued watching, but I felt like my favorite character was being ruined and it just wasn’t enjoyable to watch. I think I could have accepted the storyline a bit more if we as an audience had been told a lot sooner that the Cordelia we were seeing wasn’t actually Cordelia. Despite Cordelia not being a part of Season 5, I did initially attempt to watch the show, but it just seemed so different from the show I loved during Seasons 1-3 The last episode I watched happened to be Cordelia’s last episode.

I loved You’re Welcome because we got back the real Cordelia, but I also kind of hate it because we find out that she never actually came out of the coma she was in during Season 4. I love that she went out a hero, but I also really hate that she promise that she’d be around when Angel finally got redemption didn’t come to pass. I do recognize that Cordelia’s death was the only realistic way she wouldn’t have stayed around after waking up from the coma, but part me always wishes she gotten an ending that didn’t end in death.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Ven 02 Mar 2012, 22:25

Citation :
Thirty Days of Angel: Day 1 &2 - Favorite Female Character/Favorite Male Character: Cordelia Chase and Geraldo Angel

Day 1 - Cordelia has one of the best arcs on either show and the best part is, everything that makes her wonderful and strong and honest and guarded and a hero was always there, waiting to come out. She understands her place in the mission so well and accepts it and makes mistakes and gets scared and hurt but she never stops fighting. She’s unconquerable. Deal with it.

Day 2 - I think what I love most about Angel on Angel is that he never stops being a vampire while also revealing aspects of his personality, good and bad, that are so wonderfully human. That there is so much that he doesn’t know he wants (friends, a family, to feel accepted by said friends and family) or thinks he deserves (a second chance at love, a son, second chances period) but he gets them anyway. And he gets them because he has to fight the good fight and part of that means understanding that, to quote Angel, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. You don’t get that without living in this world and taking chances and getting repeatedly broken, the way Angel does, and getting back up again.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Dim 11 Mar 2012, 17:32

hopesichord:


Citation :
Cordelia Fucking Chase is wonderful because her parents lose all their money and flee the country and she just goes and gets a job and is wonderful.

Because she’s awesome.

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Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Dim 11 Mar 2012, 20:58

catchmenowimfalling:


Citation :
“Harmony, shut up!”(2x16: Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered)

I love this moment. I mean, I love this episode, but I love this moment. This is one of the many steps that is Cordelia’s character growth. Cordelia just has the most ridiculously seamless growth. It happens in pockets, like here, but every one just makes perfect sense. Bitch is flawless.

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Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Dim 11 Mar 2012, 21:36

dontanswerthephone:


Citation :
TOP 20 TELEVISION CRUSHES

14) Cordelia Chase/Charisma Carpenter

What is there to say about Cordelia Chase? I have always enjoyed her bitchy attitude from her cheerleader days on BtVS through to her sudden big bad status on AtS.

My favourite Cordelia time is Season 3 of BtVS up to Season 2 of AtS. In this time you see her vulnerability in epsiodes like “The Prom” and “Expecting.” She grows so much over the first season of Angel and even though she still has money on her mind and the wish to marry some rich man, Cordy realises who her real family is and I love “To Shanshu in LA” when she called Angel and Wesley her family <3 so cute! She really is the heart of the Angel Investigation team.

Plus her outfit when she is a princess in Pylea sums up the main reason why she is on my list…

Oh Cordeeelia, how I love to feeeeeel ya.

_________________




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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Lun 12 Mar 2012, 18:03

asspansy:

Citation :
Oh Cordelia you are my hero forever and ever and ever and I love you and your phallic-shaped weapon and your extreme fierceness and can I marry you and have your babies pls?

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Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Sam 17 Mar 2012, 21:36

mia-culpa:

Citation :

30 Days of Awesome Females on TV Meme

Day Five: Favorite female character on a male-driven show - Cordelia Chase (Angel)


I adored Cordelia in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, because she always spoke her mind. And that remained the case when she was on Angel, except her voice of cutting honesty was even more needed. She always dragged Angel out from the trenches and the dark to have moments of happiness and non-brooding. She made a sort of silly Private Vampire Detective Agency into a real family. Cordy was the heart of the show and everything wrapped around her. She was bright, effusive, and always blunt. Sometimes she came across shallow or mean, but she was always honest and really did care deeply for the little rag-tag family she’d made in L.A. — and used everything she had to protect them. Acerbic wit and whatever else was in her tiny purse.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Sam 17 Mar 2012, 21:36

nikkidelphia:

Citation :

She came a long way from being the “nastiest girl in Sunnydale history” to becoming a hero in her own right. Making sacrifices in her life so she could stick by Angel and fight the good fight, helping the hopeless. Cordelia Chase was the heart of Angel. Without her, everything fell apart.

IDK, I just felt like putting that out there.

_________________




Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Sam 17 Mar 2012, 21:45

bloodbender:

Citation :

Day 5: favorite female character on a male-driven show | Cordelia Chase

The HBIC of the Whedonverse, Cordy had one of the best arcs in anything ever completely ignoring the events of season 4. Oh, Cordy, you didn’t deserve those things that happened to you. She understood her place in the world and she embraced it, endangering her life on several occasions, she never, ever stopped fighting. That’s something even Buffy couldn’t do.

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Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Sam 17 Mar 2012, 21:56



icarusfalls:


Citation :
@itsinthetrees said that the white colors wash her out, but I think she looks stunning at the end of S3. this outfit is the iconic Ats Cordelia outfit for me: whenever I think of Cordelia I think of her S1 long hair, this outfit, and “You’re Welcome” in all its flawless glory.

_________________




Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Sam 04 Aoû 2012, 12:31

afternoongin:


Citation :
30 days of Angel.
Day 1 - favourite female character.

Cordelia Chase. There can be no other. From the moment she offered to share her history book with Buffy, I decided that she was basically the best invention Joss Whedon was ever going to create. She had an amazing arc - from bitchy, guarded, loney girl, to Angel’s girl friday, to a true hero - there’s nothing Cordelia Chase couldn’t take on and conquer. Even the horror years that were season four and five couldn’t detract from the wonderfulness of this amazing character.

_________________




Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Jeu 17 Jan 2013, 22:43

Stoney:

Citation :
I love how contradictory Cordelia appears at surface level. She is narcissistic but a lot of what she presents in a cultivated image and values which she has learnt are desirable. But at the end of the day she is still the cheerleader who turned her back on cool to date a less popular guy that she liked and that was her true character. The other stuff, image, fame, fortune etc is very much a part of who she is but is a chosen aspect rather than her intrinsic nature. At the end of the day she isn't turned by the surface and does see deeper, she clocked him as a vamp, she dated the nerd and she was able to tell Buffy to get over it. There is something delightfully honest about Cordelia even when she is trying to not be herself!!

_________________




Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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Nombre de messages : 31378
Age : 28
Localisation : Belgique
Date d'inscription : 02/12/2006

MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Dim 10 Fév 2013, 10:01

Emmie:

Citation :
I feel like this gifset demonstrates an aspect of how Cordy's selfishness has been transmuted into a selflessness qua Angel.

The repetition of "I need her"/"He needs me" demonstrates how Angel's destiny has replaced wealth/style/attractiveness as the primary means by which Cordy attains important status. It's painful to me how one-sided that is -- how Cordy asserts her self-worth based upon how much Angel needs her. And in return, I think Cordy views needing Angel as demonstrative of weakness -- for instance, needing Angel to rescue her in a battle, needing Angel to comfort her.

I keep thinking about how Cordelia kept expecting to be punished in Season 1, and underneath all the bravado, I think she takes on the mantle of the visions and all the pain that entails because she thinks she deserves to bear that pain. To forcibly put aside her pain and channel all her energy into helping others through helping Angel.

The visions allow Cordy to feed her desire to be unique, possess high social status as a savior of the world, and also punish herself for her past.

I think Cordy eventually kills off her instinct for self-preservation because she sees it as part of being weak. It's that instinct that had her running long past anyone following her in "Becoming". And the instinct that had her wanting to get outta dodge when Angel took Faith into his home in "Sanctuary". And I was just reading the transcript for "Tomorrow" and Cordy mentions how afraid she is of what's happening -- and maybe that fear is because she knows she can't fully trust Skip, that she's only met him all of once. And yet she leaps past that fear and offers herself up for another transformation.

Ultimately, she becomes a tragic casualty because she has so much faith in her purpose as a vessel and agent of Good.

And, thinking on her selfishness, perhaps she puts aside so many aspects of her selfishness in Season 3 because her recently leaving to go on vacation (which is all about leaving The Mission to indulge herself) resulted in so much tragedy for Angel and Connor. Cordelia cleansing Connor of the remnants of Quortoth, the way she cleansed the hotel of the infestation that occurred in her absence, is part of her doing penance for being selfish.

_________________




Citation :
Now, these kids are not destined. In fact, loving each other was a byproduct of their destinies in the sense of their destinies brought them together, but them loving each other actually pushed against their destinies. Their destiny is the mission. Their love distracts from that. The mission wins out. This is their great tragedy. ~ anythingbutgrey, about Cangel

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MessageSujet: Re: Ce qu'en pensent les fans   Aujourd'hui à 21:38

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